Snippet #2--Ongoing Conversations
Note: Turning on and off the "italic" function is giving me fits on this post, as it has before on "blogger." I meant to put all quotations in italics, and my own words in regular text. I can't do it consistently. GRRRRR. Do I need to edit Html?? In the meantime, look for the quotation marks.
The battle of Anabaptism/Protestantism definitions has been waged elsewhere. When I plowed through all the arguments and counter-arguments on MD, I summed it up in my mind with one word: semantics. I've read Harold Bender's Anabaptist Vision, but can't remember how he deals with these terms. I suspect, however, that he used the terms with the awareness of some of the issues involving semantics. He likely chose his words as he did because they served as understandable symbols for what he wished to communicate. That's what words are for, after all.
Semantics is the study of meanings. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary (M-W) says further under that first initial description of semantics, "a: the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development b (1): semiotic (2): a branch of semiotic dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth 2: general semantics3 a: the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs ; especially : connotative meaning b: the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings."
The argument in a comment on this blog (that Anabaptists are Protestants, byH----) is true only by a very narrow definition of the word Protestant--one that does not include all aspects of "historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words. . . "
It also fails to take into account the "connotative meaning." Merriam-Webster again, on connotation:
The battle of Anabaptism/Protestantism definitions has been waged elsewhere. When I plowed through all the arguments and counter-arguments on MD, I summed it up in my mind with one word: semantics. I've read Harold Bender's Anabaptist Vision, but can't remember how he deals with these terms. I suspect, however, that he used the terms with the awareness of some of the issues involving semantics. He likely chose his words as he did because they served as understandable symbols for what he wished to communicate. That's what words are for, after all.
Semantics is the study of meanings. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary (M-W) says further under that first initial description of semantics, "a: the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development b (1): semiotic (2): a branch of semiotic dealing with the relations between signs and what they refer to and including theories of denotation, extension, naming, and truth 2: general semantics3 a: the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs ; especially : connotative meaning b: the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings."
The argument in a comment on this blog (that Anabaptists are Protestants, byH----) is true only by a very narrow definition of the word Protestant--one that does not include all aspects of "historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words. . . "
It also fails to take into account the "connotative meaning." Merriam-Webster again, on connotation:
"1 a: the suggesting of a meaning by a word apart from the thing it explicitly names or describes b: something suggested by a word or thing : implication connotations of comfort that surrounded that old chair> 2: the signification of something connotation — W. R. Inge> 3: an essential property or group of properties of a thing named by a term in logic — compare denotation"
The term Protestant suggests a meaning "apart from the thing it explicitly names" (i.e. connotes. or has a different connotation). Specifically, in certain circles at least, it suggests the characteristics that Eldest Son and Gerald referred to.
The denotation (not to be confused with detonation!) of Protestant is one thing you (H---) are very clear on. It is, according to M-W, a "direct specific meaning as distinct from an implied or associated idea"
In the MD discussion, and now as well, it's clear to me that when you say Protestant, you are referring to its denotative aspect, (also allowing for pacifist Lutherans, for example, within that label) and you think Anabaptists belong there also. In other words, I think I understand what both you and Gerald mean by the way you use the terms, differentiate between them or lump them under the same umbrella, etc. .
I think the need to argue over semantics disappears the minute we all understand what other people mean by their terms. So if we all understand now where you're coming from and what Gerald means by the terms he uses, we can probably go on to other things.
The issues surrounding the callings of God on our lives rightly concern us, and understandings of that involve how we relate to governement, to society, and to others in the church. And these matters can not all be given one-word umbrella labels. Effective communication, unfortunately, is much messier than that.
Postscript: I recently discovered the blogger feature that allows blog comments to be emailed to me. (Some of you are noting that I have a keen sense of the obvious.) Check it out by clicking on "Comments" if this option interests you. I'm actually not sure now if that option exists if you have not posted a comment on that blog, so I may be giving a false impression here. I used to try to remember to go back to earlier posts to see what other people were saying--a mild annoyance for the chronically absent-minded.
The term Protestant suggests a meaning "apart from the thing it explicitly names" (i.e. connotes. or has a different connotation). Specifically, in certain circles at least, it suggests the characteristics that Eldest Son and Gerald referred to.
The denotation (not to be confused with detonation!) of Protestant is one thing you (H---) are very clear on. It is, according to M-W, a "direct specific meaning as distinct from an implied or associated idea"
In the MD discussion, and now as well, it's clear to me that when you say Protestant, you are referring to its denotative aspect, (also allowing for pacifist Lutherans, for example, within that label) and you think Anabaptists belong there also. In other words, I think I understand what both you and Gerald mean by the way you use the terms, differentiate between them or lump them under the same umbrella, etc. .
I think the need to argue over semantics disappears the minute we all understand what other people mean by their terms. So if we all understand now where you're coming from and what Gerald means by the terms he uses, we can probably go on to other things.
The issues surrounding the callings of God on our lives rightly concern us, and understandings of that involve how we relate to governement, to society, and to others in the church. And these matters can not all be given one-word umbrella labels. Effective communication, unfortunately, is much messier than that.
Postscript: I recently discovered the blogger feature that allows blog comments to be emailed to me. (Some of you are noting that I have a keen sense of the obvious.) Check it out by clicking on "Comments" if this option interests you. I'm actually not sure now if that option exists if you have not posted a comment on that blog, so I may be giving a false impression here. I used to try to remember to go back to earlier posts to see what other people were saying--a mild annoyance for the chronically absent-minded.
posted by Mrs. I at
4:38 AM
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