Christian Viewpoints on Muslims

The following Facebook exchange might be of interest to readers who are not friends of any of the people involved in the discussion. I have cut and pasted the text and then added some text which is written in bold letters.

I am omitting the identity of the individuals involved. The first comments are in response to a news item referring to the punishment of a chocolate thief under Muslim law. Cutting off his hand was the punishment. The person who posted this link did not comment on the story, except in one brief comment below.

I know personally only Individual #3 and the original poster. If the unidentified people wish to be identified I will be glad to do so if they contact me to express their wishes. (I don't think they read this blog though, so it's not likely to happen.

• Comment #1, Individual #1 Hard to believe how many fellow Americans that want to let the Muslims run wild in our country !
• Comment #2, Individual #2[addressed to individual #1] it's because they refuse to look at how terrible muslims really are, they remain willfully ignorant!!
• Individual #3 [to original poster] definitely an example of "justice" gone wrong. [Comment directed to individual #2]: have you ever conversed with a Muslim?
• Comment from original poster, to Individual #3: yep all the guy wanted was chocolate . just a side note there is countries with out Muslims that would have very harsh punishment for the same crime
• Comment from individual #2: [Individual #3] I have conversed with both muslims and ex muslims. If you understand their culture and their religion, you will understand that they are a very violent and unjust group of people, which is easy to understand as their teaching is directly oppisite of what God teaches in the Bible!!
• [Individual #3, addressed to individual #2], we've apparently circulated in quite different crowds. If that's the picture you've gained through your interactions with Muslim people, I can't argue with the impressions you've gained through those means. However, I can offer a glimpse into a different part of the Muslim world. I've spent a total of around 8 months living and working in a Muslim country, and my experience differs greatly from what you describe. I couldn't say that the society was either more violent or more unjust than Christian-dominated countries of similar economic status. It's also true that the Muslim conception of who God is differs substantially from the Christian view (although perhaps not so greatly from many Christians' *practice* of religion), though they do count the Torah, the Psalms, and the New Testament among their holy books .
  
  I won't dispute the fact that some Muslim people do believe that their faith demands things of them that we deem despicable. The article [original poster] linked to could be "exhibit A" here, although I'm guessing simple tyranny and social injustice also play a large part in that particular affair--it reminds me somewhat of Hugo's Les Miserables in that regard. I also will not attempt to make the obviously foolish claim that Islam and Christianity are in complete agreement. However, I do submit that statements like "muslims are terrible", that "they are a very violent and unjust group of people", or that "their teaching is directly opposite of what God teaches in the Bible" are greatly overstated, and do injustice to the many people like my Muslim friends and colleagues.
  

  
  

  Check me on this, but I think those statements, and the attitudes behind them, are much more aligned with "the pattern of this world" than with that of the kingdom of God--that they are aligned with our natural tendency, evidenced frequently throughout history, to sort into "us and them", with "our" team being unequivocally good and "their" team being irredeemably bad and thus worthy of anything that comes to them. If we do indeed follow a Savior who sacrificed himself for the love of those who hated him and told us that our duties are first to love the Lord with all of our being and then to love our neighbors (per the story of the Samaritan, this includes all people, including those with whom our politics or traditions would put us at odds)--if we follow a Savior who told us to "take up our crosses and follow him"--shouldn't our transformation (Romans 12 ) extend to the way we think and talk about others?
  
  
• Comment by individual #2: [Individual #3], I will assume then that you think their horrible treatment of women is ok, and their holy book the koran that teaches jihad or killing others for no other reason then the fact that they are not of the islam faith is ok, and to say that Jesus Christ is the son of God is blasphemy. If you call these items all ok and call yourself a Christian I can understand why people are turned off at Christianity.If there are Christians that are unjust it's because they're not going by the Bible, but the Muslims koran teaches violence and you nor anyone else can change this fact by saying that it's not so!!Because it's there in writing!!
• Individual #3 [comment directed to individual #2]
  I'll respond to the specific things you mention in a bit. Before I do, however, I want to return to a point I did not see addressed in your reply. Since it is the central point I'm trying to address, not to mention the point on which Jesus says "all the law and the prophets" hangs, I'd like to break it down.
  1. Am I right that Christ commands us to love others unconditionally? I'm looking at Luke 6:27 through the end of the chapter, "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you", etc.
  2. Am I right that if we do not follow Christ in this, we are not followers of God? (See Matt 22:37-40, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.")
  3. As a professed follower of God, are blanket statements like the three I cited above rooted in the twinned love for God and love for others?
  
  Getting to the items you did raise:
  
  You state that "I will assume" a number of things. As I'm sure you know, such an assumption is in error. My assertion that Christians are called to act in love and respect toward Muslims does not mean that I endorse all of the tenets of the Islamic faith, or all of the ways that it is abused. I believe in making this distinction I don't need to be ashamed of the company I share. Jesus was condemned for eating with "tax collectors and sinners" in Mark 2:13-17, and yet I think it would be hard to argue that he was endorsing any wrong in their lives. In his interactions with the adulterous woman in John 8:2-11, he showed her mercy and respect, but spoke truth to her. In John 4, he interacted with the Samaritan woman in the same mode, though in so doing he surely "tainted" himself by association in the minds of those around him. On Mars Hill (Acts 17), Paul showed respect for and an ability to see from the perspective of those he addressed, even as he offered them the truth he had. Again, I don't think any reasonable person would argue that he was endorsing the whole of Athenian practice in doing this
  
  Perhaps more directly applicable to the issue at hand is a quote from Anabaptist leader Michael Sattler. I would likely express myself in different language than he, but he spoke truth to the civil and church authorities in an era when Muslims and self-identified Christians were warring in Eurasia. For his "heresy", the Church burned him at the stake. He said (http://tinyurl.com/269nev4) that "Eighthly, If the Turks should come, we ought not to resist them; for it is written: Thou shalt not kill. We must not defend ourselves against the Turks and others of our persecutors, but are to beseech God with earnest prayer to repel and resist them. But that I said, that if warring were right, I would rather take the field against the so-called Christians, who persecute, apprehend and kill pious Christians, than against the Turks, was for this reason: The Turk is a true Turk, knows nothing of the Christian faith; and is a Turk after the flesh; but you, who would be Christians, and who make your boast of Christ, persecute the pious witnesses of Christ, and are Turks after the spirit."
  
  I hope I've adequately addressed your assumptions. As for the specific items you raise, I'll simply provide a few anecdotes within the context of the previous paragraphs.
  
  * I know that the wives of several of my Muslim friends are in apparently happy marriages, and I'm guessing would be quite surprised to ­learn that they are being "horribly" treated. It's true that even in the relatively "liberal" country with which I'm familiar mingling between the genders is much more restricted, and that gender roles are much more strongly defined than they are in America--not always in ways I see as positive. However, it's worth noting that the same, albeit in some different ways and perhaps to a different degree, is true of the Amish background we share.
  * In the formative years of what we know as Islam today, Islam was actually fairly "progressive" in its view of women relative to much of the surrounding society.
  * By these statements, I'm not claiming that all Muslim women are well-treated; that's patently false, as the occasional story that makes it to the news or a movie documents well. However, even the first anecdote suffices to demonstrate that the blanket statement that "muslims treat women horribly" (a paraphrase of your first implicit assertion) is false, as a general statement.
  * The concept of jihad is undeniably in the Quran, and for some implies a violent struggle. In at least some cases, my impression is that it would take a fairly "liberal" theological interpretation to interpret it in any other way. Your statement, however, ignores a few facts that come to mind:
  ** That the Quran, in portions (probably written before the Jewish people resident in Medina worked with Muhammad's enemies) also talks about essentially not fighting with the "people of the book", and that such people have for periods in history been much better treated in Muslim lands than Muslims in "Christian" lands.
  ** That many Muslims are personally inclined toward non-violent interpretations of "jihad", often as an internalized struggle. This may be a "liberal" theological position, but is certainly true for a number of Muslims. One somewhat-though-not-quite parallel in the Bible is Matt 10:34-36, where Jesus says he came not to bring peace but a sword, to turn families against each other. As Christians, we quickly (and I think appropriately) spiritualize that passage to mean "Jesus needs to come first, regardless of whether your family agrees"--but it talks about Jesus bringing a sword, and says that "your enemies will be the members of your own household". It's not hard for me to imagine similar interpretive processes running in the minds of Muslim readers of the Quran.
  * If I understand correctly, one reason for the reason Muslims see it as especially repugnant to say Jesus is the Son of God is an understandable misunderstanding of Christian doctrine. We're comfortable with using the word "Son" in a sort of "describing the relationship" sense; IIUC, the Islamic understanding, at least "on the ground", is that Christians believe that God the Father sexually impregnated Mary, and that that's what we mean by "son". It's a reasonable conclusion without the background, if you think about it, and one that we find about as shocking as Muslims do.
  Again, I'm not saying I endorse all of Islam. In this set of anecdotes and previous ones, I'm simply attempting to point out why a number of the blanket statements used earlier in the conversation, together with the patterns of thought behind them, are incorrect, unjust, and foreign to following Christ. However, at the end of the day the anecdotes, yours and mine, are a sideshow to the core question I raised at the start of this comment.
  
• [Comment by individual #2] [Individual #3], your response is way to longwinded and complicated for a simple guy like me! I will end my side of the debate with this; After having talked to muslims, ex-muslims, and read parts of the koran, I believe they are a false and violent r...eligion. They came into exixstence by killing, pillaging, and robbing others, quite a foundation for people of faith in God or allah as they call him!!??I believe in loving all people, but Jesus never instructed us to endorse or believe all spirits, but rather to test them and see if they are from the Lord!!Which Islam is definitely not from the Lord, as Jesus said that He is the light, the truth and the way, and no one comes to the Father except through Him!!!So how do you suppose muslims will get to heaven, bypassing Jesus???? [Individual #1 likes this.]
• [Individual #3, Comment addressed to individual #2] perhaps my specifically addressing in my earlier post the points that you raised made it too “longwinded and complicated”. I do accept Jesus’ statement of being the only way to the Father as authoritative, and cited a number of examples of how he and those who followed Him illustrated “speaking the truth in love”. In this phrase, both action (“speaking”) and motivation/manner (“in love") aspects are essential to following Christ. My core challenge is to you as, I assume, a fellow traveler of the Way: the language you’ve used follows the world’s pattern rather than that of Christ, and to continue in that path is abandonment of Christ. Mingling truth (and there are elements of truth in what you’ve said) with falsehoods, in this case inappropriate generalizations, is a rejection of the Truth. Speaking to or of others without love is an “off-ramp” from the Way.
  
  In your above comments, I still didn’t see the core question addressed. You don’t have to post your answer, but please do answer for yourself the three short, simple questions at the start of my comment above. If these questions do point to truth, please consider how that should affect your thoughts, speech, and conduct. You don’t have to answer to me—I’m a fellow traveler with a duty to “speak the truth in love”, and that duty is now discharged, however imperfectly. What happens next is up to you.
• [Comment by individual #4]Very, very interesting. I need more time to process all this, but will definitely do so.
• [Comment by individual #2] [individual #3] you sound wishy washy to me!!You can make all the excuses you want for muslims, and tell me I'm not loving all you want, that still won't get them to heaven unless they repent and accept Jesus as their personal saviuor!